Comments on: Which Comes First, the Process or the Product?

By: Kim

Kim — Thu, 24 Jun 2010 13:32:05 +0000

Hello Davida, thank you for returning. Csikszentmihalyi is truly a mouthful for our North American and Western European tongues, but that is also part of what makes him memorable. He is a wonderful researcher and writer, and I like to think his work has had an impact on our society. Through time, my husband and I have been able to make a lot of changes in our lives while still keeping our responsibilities in line to ourselves and our children. We are not a typical family by any stretch of the imagination, so in time we will all be able to achieve flow here. I just hope the larger society can do the same as that impacts us all.

This is a wonderful conversation and I am glad you have kept it going, Davida. Thank you

By: Davida

Davida — Wed, 23 Jun 2010 19:53:37 +0000

I’m glad you got his name right! Yes he is a marvelous writer and I have enjoyed his books. As I recall he had many examples of people with mundane jobs who managed to achieve fowl in their jobs and in their private lives. One man made it his ‘flow goal’ to be able to repair every machine in the factory he worked in. He also created a city garden and planned for every season to have an improved way to cultivate and present its fruits. I know there were more.

The corporate world can squeeze all the soul out of those who work for it but we can make change. I did it by leaving a soulless job for the one I have now had for 10 years: teaching how to make art and making it myself.

By: Kim

Kim — Wed, 23 Jun 2010 15:02:50 +0000

You know, I agree with you Davida. As I was talking to my scientist husband (who is an employee of Corporate America), we came to realize many people would love to have this with their work, however there are but a few (although highly successful) work places which allow for this kind of experience. It is sad and it is clearly a need which needs addressing. Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi is a wonderful researcher and writer. His work has opened the doors for a whole new way of thinking about the creative process, the challenge comes from “the powers that be” (in the corporate world, in education, etc.) who take this work and twist it to fit into the the existing industrial mold. The same is true of Howard Gardner’s work with Multiple Intelligences. I also agree with Csikszentmihalyi that anyone in any profession can experience flow, the challenge is to give them time to do it, the means to do it and the permission to “relearn” the process. In this fast paced, “show me the money” world, being able to achieve flow is achievable to few rather than many. Can you imagine the peace we would have if the masses could achieve flow in their work each day?

Thanks Davida. I love to hear from you.

By: Davida

Davida — Mon, 21 Jun 2010 02:05:00 +0000

I think the idea of focusing on process instead of the product is one to hold onto in almost anything. Another book that confirms just that is ‘Flow: the Psychology of Optimal Experience’. (The author origins are from eastern Europe and his name is filled with Cs, Zs, Ys, and Ks so I really don’t know how to spell it.) Any way he got the idea for the book by observing artists. He saw that the act of working was so interesting and absorbing that once the work was done it was put aside for the next project. It demonstrated that just the act of making art was the reward. Yes, the artist needed to do some commerce but that was incidental to the work. Meaningful work is very important to one’s general happiness. The word meaningful is key. He also said that anyone can set up the conditions for optimal experience. Anyone in any occupation can experience flow.

By: Kim

Kim — Sat, 19 Jun 2010 13:35:10 +0000

Thank you Davida for visiting me here and joining in the conversation. I don’t know of the book you speak about, however it is available used (although no other reviews). The idea that the idea that any activity done for pure pleasure is full of guilt is clearly one which needs to be explored. You can sure see this is the case where our children are concerned, can’t you? You also bring up a good point about friends. We are so absorbed with our social networking that we forget just what being a friend really is about. Although I have to be perfectly honest, I have met more people of a like mind through my blogging than I ever have in real life and as a result I have made some really good and true friends. Reading for the delight of the story or for the complete and utter pleasure of the written word is absolutely another area we need to touch upon in this discussion. I know many of my artist friends will enjoy picking up a book to read for the love of the story or the rhythm of the poem, but those who do not touch this place deep within themselves don’t seem to have this pleasure. It is very sad. You make two excellent points here one that this focus on the product often leads to a joyless view of life. Oh how I see this often in people around me. Then you say by focusing on the process the product will always be useful. I just said this to my family last night! The thing is sometimes, the product will be useful in the utilitarian sense, too, when you learn to focus on the process, the outcome in all other things will prove to be a much better product than when you focus on the product.

Thanks so much, Davida! I hope you will visit me again.

By: Davida

Davida — Sat, 19 Jun 2010 03:27:59 +0000

This topic reminds me of an old book by a theater critic from the NY Times from the ’60s. It’s called The Declined of Pleasure. It discusses utilitarianism; the idea that everything must be ‘useful’. Each item of production each activity result must result in some pragmatic outcome. He observed that the result was that any activity done just for the pleasure of the doing has became so riddled with guilt it no longer pleasurable. Friends are no longer friends but part of a network of advancement. Reading for the delight in a book you can’t put down is to be avoided only for books which are informative to one’s occupation or to ‘improve’ one’s self. It is a joyless view of human life. If one focuses on the process of life the products which flow from it will always be ‘useful’ but not necessarily in the utilitarian sense.

By: Kim

Kim — Fri, 18 Jun 2010 12:41:43 +0000

Hello Suki! I am glad you like the little door sketch. I am having fun with them. I am quite sure you will enjoy Ken Robinson’s talk on TED, too (see the link in response to San’s comment). You are right, learning to problem solve can be fun, but also true problem solving comes with being able to step outside the box and step up for what your intuition tells you is right sometimes. We can’t always solve problems with pre-determined steps and that is where learning the arts comes in…there is serious problem solving going on there. Here is the thing, I am reminded by my professor friends that this kind of “teaching” is too difficult to evaluate, therefore it is not often taught. Mmmm, that in itself is a huge message…if it is too hard, don’t do it! As you know, the arts are often the first thing to go when school budgets are cut – unless, that is, they can make them a competition (music competitions, creative writing competitions, etc.) If there is a chance to beat out the other guy, then by all means keep it in the budget. You and I know this is not real creativity, it is more of a formulaic way of approaching a subject.

I absolutely love your analogy of the earth’s humans are like “lemmings racing to the edge of the cliff as fast as we can.” Oh how right you are that we are all living with the idea of getting to the edge to be richer or more famous. In the race, we are ignoring the process for the idea of the product. The thing I wonder is are true creative types the only ones who understand that when you focus on the process the product often comes out better? Yes, it is slower, but…well, we have talked about slow a lot on this blog.

Yes, we do seem to have forgotten to have a reverence for life and it is something we need to remember. There are those who are here to teach us how to slow down, look, ponder and respect, but these people seem to be getting trampled in the lemming run, don’t they?

You know, I think we all have our ways of moving through museums and sometimes in busy ones we are lost in the shuffle, too. Clothier talks about that and actually suggests a meditation for really looking at a piece of art. Your experience of “drawing the energy” is a part of this meditation. I will talk about it in another post, if you like. I agree with you that living near the museum is a big bonus, but this meditation can be done with any piece.

Thanks Suki, as always you bring some great thoughts in your comments. You have given me a lot more to contemplate!

By: Kim

Kim — Fri, 18 Jun 2010 12:16:40 +0000

You are right San, at this age it should be about fun and problem solving can be fun. I think a lot of the time the issue is so structured it is about following the scientific steps rather than having fun or exploring the answers to problems set up by the child. You might enjoy listening to Ken Robinson on TED. He is funny and has some insights about education, in general, but also gives some specifics as to what is happening with younger children in larger cities, too.

By: suki

suki — Thu, 17 Jun 2010 23:55:52 +0000

thought provoking post per usual. Love your open door with the wild colors behind it. Love the title of the book too. Read the NYTimes aritcle. I agree w/San about learning to solve problems could be fun. I always felt that one area school fell down in when I was in it was helping me to experience/learn how to solve problems. and I dont mean math. Although not sure If I would have wanted to solve engineering problems exactly.

In tandem though i would like to see the children also learning about poetry, art and music and all the arts. Hopefully they wont be banished for the sake of business goals.

Meanwhile in our adult world, one wonders what has happened. Is this new, this shirking of creating sustainable and responsible businesses? It is as if we are all lemmings racing to the edge of the cliff as fast as we can. It doesnt matter who we hurt and trample on the way. We are deluded into thinking that at the edge of the cliff lies money, fame whatever. But it is only disaster.

I do think it is and has always been the poets, artists and prophets, monks and so forth who have been here to teach the others to slow down, to look, to ponder, to respect. I always remember what albert Schweitzer said: reverence for life. Well, I’m sure there was more to it than that but I always remember that phrase. we seem to have forgotten it.

By the way, when I’m in an art museum I often walk quite quickly through the rooms although when pulled I will stop and examine a work more closely. I dont know why I do that. More an intuitive pulling in of the energy and paint. Does that mean I am not seeing? Maybe it means i am drawing in the energy and seeing in a different way. If I have time I would of course visit the same rooms over and over, if I lived near the museum.

By: San

San — Thu, 17 Jun 2010 23:09:12 +0000

I went over to the NYT and skimmed the article. I can see that learning to solve problems like this, connecting the classroom to the world outside, could be fun for kids. And at the age of 5, it should be about fun. Not landing a job or competing in the global economy.